Construction of a harmonious community (Guangzhou Station) Record owners of public action training (d) - Chinese owners big ...

 The third stage started Moderator: Everybody, please be seated, well, everyone was seated. Please be quiet, we carried out following the third session on the theme of Mr. Lei Bin, Guangdong Provincial People's Congress Law Committee, we welcome Mr. Lei Bin. Lei Bin: Thank you! very happy to have such an opportunity to sit here and to share, I'll jump right, because time is limited. I talking about the original subject was Owners of autonomy, there are two kinds of knowledge: one is understanding the narrow sense, that autonomy is the owner excludes property services in the management of the enterprise after their master by the financial authority, powers, human rights, then, to manage the property; in addition to an understanding is a broad understanding, I think the owners of this understanding of autonomy means that all of the owners based on condominium ownership, according to the principles of democracy, establishment of autonomous organizations, establishment of self-regulation, management of property within the region as a grass-roots governance. from legal principles, the owners are entitled to dismissal of property companies, are the property right to know the company's management activities, supervision, even after the selection of property companies on major issues within the district still has decision-making power, in this sense the above speaking, commissioned by the property management, it is actually an important part of the owners of autonomy, it will be hiring the owners of property management out of the scope of autonomy, in my opinion is not correct, the owners of autonomy based on the scope of this consideration, it is still very wide , in addition to including the owners, industry, the establishment of the Commission, as well as hiring, firing, and after the implementation of residential property company self-management, development of management system of the statute, and so this should belong to the owners of the scope of autonomy, competence more . therefore targeted to the tens of minutes to finish the owners to consider the question of autonomy is more difficult, so we talk about a problem, is about the legitimate owners of self-management procedures and jurisprudence. on the owners of self-management, March 2007 the 16th through the management model is that the owners self-management, the other is delegated administration, the delegate object that can be a property company, may also be other managers, the company management, then the State Property Management Ordinance, and a lot of the delegate management of local people's congresses, was commissioned by the property management and have more clearly defined, but the current owners of self-management, is part of a blank, this is not the time that legislators in the legislature, did not realize there will be the owners of this community self-management model It was time to take into account in the legislative district emerged as the major property disputes, may still belong to the owners and property disputes between the companies, this dispute has its particularity, for our country is a relatively new way, there are many more professional nature of some of the issues involved are also relatively broad, more problems, so when the legislation is important to solve the new property management company is entrusted to the model, not to say that local laws are good , there is no requirement the original owners of the property management regulations of this model, the owners have no legal basis for self-management, and this understanding is not correct. Now the owners of their own community in terms of the implementation of the legal basis for self-management major, or as Contract Law, basic information, then do some analysis and discussion, about the bad place please critics. (16:35 pm update) the first model appeared practice, the model owner-management is the management mode of star Sheng Garden, Xing Sheng Garden in Wuxi City, Jiangsu Province, the area of 6,000 square meters, more than 400 households households, the initial developer of the property managed by a subsidiary to manage, since its establishment in 2005, found that poor management of property, after a meeting of owners Congress and the district after a vote of all owners in writing, star Sheng Garden, introduced from 2006 to owners of self-management, owners of the Committee has employed some of 40,50 district staff also recruited to the community some of idle workers, the implementation of self-management after , industry, the Commission meeting in the district has picked flowers and trees, the installation of fitness equipment, and clean water, sewers, etc., done a lot of work in this area, this area industry, the Commission also enhanced the transparency of financial, finance charges, branch is open for the owners, and regularly report to Congress, to the owners, residential property owners on the use of doubt, they can without any reason directly to the owners of the Committee asked whether the audit can be, this model we can make it simply as In using this mode of management. This mode is usually the owners and owners since its establishment by the industry, the Commission recruited directly to the social security personnel, cleaning staff, maintenance staff, professionals, management of green, but for some technical high content of the work, it will employ some of the more specialized companies like to manage a high-tech work by these companies were to do it. From a legal point of view relations, then this management model which is actually two different legal relationship, a relationship is the owners and the owners of the Committee and the hiring of security personnel, cleaning personnel, maintenance personnel, the relationship between green professionals, is what kind of relationship? I think the relationship between them constitute belongs to the employment relationship, employment relationship means that employers and employees within a certain period of time agreed upon by the employees providing services to employers, formed by the employer for remuneration of Rights and Responsibilities, this relationship is usually for the purpose of payment services, as long as the employee services provided, the employer shall pay the employee's remuneration, in general there are two types of such services, one is a labor-oriented, such as cleaning staff, cleaning staff employed, the other is the skill of wage labor, hire more professional maintenance personnel, as well as green professionals, landscape professionals, residential green. Both services staff and owners and the owners of the Committee belong to the relationship between the employment relationship, some people may think that the owners and owners of the General Assembly and its Committee on Recruitment between those who may be a labor contract, but our country has just issued in accordance with the control and management of social relations, labor relations that constitute a very important condition is that must be organized, that employers recruit workers, workers to become members of employer organizations, and our security personnel from the and cleaning personnel such, they and owners and the owners of the Committee in terms of the organization should not be so strong, because the owners, the owners after the Commission staff recruitment services, personal attachment between them and the community is not so strong, he was just in the residential property owners General Assembly and the owners of the Committee Management Command, to provide labor under the supervision of, say if it is between them and the owners, forming a personal relationship between the organization, I feel like this relationship is not present. owners and owners Committee and its relationship between the recruitment of staff does not have the organization, owners and the owners of the Committee in accordance with the present system of our country's labor and employment, it was not the right of labor and employment, they will not recruited such personnel in accordance with our State social insurance payments to pay social insurance laws and regulations and are subject to the adjustment of the labor contract law, this section does not belong to a labor contract relationship, another relationship and owners and the owners of the Committee with their recruitment of the relationship between the companies, I think they the formation of the commission contract between the relationship between the commission contract, the parties agreed that the party commissioned the transaction, they agreed to the agreement for the transaction. owners of the General Assembly and is a professional company is a professional trustee clients, owners and completion of the work of a high technological content, and commissioned by property companies in general management of the entire community in the law and do not have this essential difference, but said the scope of both management and service content to be smaller, but should belong to the commission contract relationship. may also expressed that the owners and the owners of the Committee is the contract with the professional relationship, the so-called owners and the owners of the Committee's work will be required to complete certain work to build people, made people accept the results of the work and professional company in accordance with the agreed payment to the contractor remuneration. define the owners and the owners of the Committee and the professional company between the nature of legal contracts signed between the then legal meaning is very important, because our country the contract commission contracts and contract law contract rights and obligations in specific areas, its content, the operation mode is a very big difference , including the final undertakings involved, the burden of risk when there is a relatively big difference. the owners of the management committee for the small community is more appropriate, a small community relatively small size and relatively high business costs of property In the case of funds difficult to maintain, it is difficult to ensure service quality, while this small community, it is the property type is also relatively simple, the owners ask for much, take self-management model to reduce costs, the management approach The above is also more flexible, this is the expansion mode star Sheng Garden. The second mode is the mode of cell Xin Yuan. 馨园 Huludao City, Liaoning Province district is a small family, in December 2004 when the residential property company to withdraw away, leading to cell piles of refuse, seriously, not supply all the water district, in June 2005 when the establishment of the new owners of the City Council, they decided to take owners to self-management approach to management, in the relevant departments support, the district set up a property management station, the district's three elderly people to take the residential property management, which would address the issue of charging to the residents, residential property management fees also increased from the property is not 3 to 1.5 square meters of gross gross reduce, Xin Yuan is the outstanding feature of the model cell was set up to manage the property management station, but what is the nature of the property management station? now needed to further clarify the mode of cell 馨园 biggest revelation to us that owners can set up a company is legitimate organizations other than the means to manage the district, can not be established unincorporated organization, or as individual businesses and community organizations to manage the nature, the problem may also be very important, is a very instructive, of course, many issues are also involved in some systems, the operational aspects of the issue needed further study, I generally think it should be feasible, but some issues may still need further study. third mode is the apartment was the source model, was a source of apartment community in Shanghai, this area developed in 1999, very small, only 7 floors of a building of four units are ultra-small pocket of the community, but this Area and very complex, is a sale for housing, relocation housing, mixed residential real estate as one of the original residential property company is in April 2006, when because of the long-term losses, and expiration of the contract to withdraw from the area, residential security, cleaning, maintenance of these work was paralyzed, unable to find a new property company, 5 members of industry, the Commission decided to start trying to owners of autonomy, they also employ cleaners to retain the original area of security is also down in the industry committee Council and community efforts and the help of the owners, the face of this district have a relatively large change, but because the overhead is relatively large, more difficult to maintain, in 2007, when they consider resorting to the property manager to manage the system, they specific operation is commissioned by the owners of professional managers as CEO, fund-raising business management district, organization and coordination by professional housekeeping industry, the Commission hired security, cleaning and other staff to manage the district, the district has hired security, cleaning staff also professional professional managers hired by the professional managers on security, cleaning staff to manage the district's former CEO and the original property company managers difference is that the CEO is employed in the community industry, the Commission rather than the property where the company , as owners pay the rest of the industry, the Commission received all the profits are still owned by all the owners of all, we can call this model the management of professional managers; (16:43 pm update) from the legal relations point of view, owners of residential property owners on the committee and the General Assembly, they hired security, cleaning staff this relationship. just now mentioned the first time a model has been talked about. I think they have an employment relationship, there is not more talk about it. Area of Industry Authority commissioned professional managers to manage the district, who is in law what kind of relationship? I think the professional manager should be similar to the company system among the managers, owners and committees professional managers and community relations board and the company is somewhat similar to the relationship between the manager. , the manager belongs to the trustee, can proxy the company, the name of the company signed a contract with the owners and owners of professional relationship between the companies, and the relationship between professional managers, somewhat similar to the relationship between the owners and the Commission is the principal owner, professional manager is the trustee and agent. professional managers with relative independence, relations of personal dependence is relatively small, in accordance with civil law authorized agent community the legal consequences arising out of acts, from the district all the owners to bear, I think this system of professional managers a better solution that is, when judges and industry, the Commission issues an athlete, you can give full play to the professional advantages of professional managers, industry, the Commission is not directly managed residential property later, he has the advantage that you can put yourself out of the body of professional managers to supervise the system this is relatively good, this model is still worth learning. The fourth model is the product Court, district management. Products Haidian District Court district is a residential property, the estate is about more than 20,000 square meters area, this area is long due and irreconcilable contradiction between the owners, residential property company in September last year to withdraw, and after The plot centers on the establishment of a property services, self-employed seven full-time staff, including cleaners, janitors, guards patrol the compound, as well as mechanics, for some relatively high-tech, housing management, project management, elevator management more professional work is also commissioned a professional company to complete independently, and later in order to further standardize the management, in the district 148 owners wish to set up their own company, is set themselves up as a property management company to the plot, the owners want to plot 148 all registered as shareholders, but then they went to the Registry of Commerce and Industry, when the staff told them, in accordance with the provisions of the existing company law, to set up a limited liability company registered number is limited, then, must be 2 or more people 50 people Now there are billion people in the company and established a joint-stock companies, then to the registered capital requirement is very high, of course, have the size limit is more than a limited liability company a few slightly more than that, but the registered capital requirement is high, then the district owners thought of a way that they choose to owners of the Committee to 7 members registered as shareholders, and the first half of the property costs the same sample of 4 million were registered on June 29 this year, Haidian District Council on the establishment of residential property services registration Center for the limited liability company, and now they take the service center operation of the corporate system, industry, the Commission is equivalent to the board, the equivalent of community service centers, general manager, general manager, he is responsible to the industry, the Commission, to the whole industry, the Commission on owners. I do not understand one thing, this model is not a fundamental solution to the problem of equity; (16:50 pm update) because we want the future if that changes the industry members as a general or particular, when If industry members not to hand over equity or industry members to sell the shares for personal gain, this time under the existing corporate system, it is probably a good grasp of residential property owners want to live in the company's equity, it may be faced with some legal obstacles, of course, is not there are other better ways, that is, who set up this company, who as a shareholder, if a better deal, then there will be any other more appropriate way, I also mentioned in the back of the upper house of a Beijing Naga model, also referred to corporate management model, this model. Naga is a district of Beijing, the Dongzhimen area near the Second Ring Road in Beijing in 2005, this When sales of residential developers in the housing funded by the developer before the establishment of this property companies, they recruit professional staff, the formation of the company, when in the sales of housing, the developer will be equity, the property company's equity share in accordance with property owners, share of the project, the proportion of area available for sale were donated to the owners, property and housing equity is tied, and asked not to be able to gift and transfer, so that each of the property owners have become shareholders of the company, the developer no longer holds a stake, after the general meeting of the owners of the property to be elected to lead the company's board of directors of property companies, property companies to hire professionals as the general manager of the company under the leadership of the board of directors, general manager responsibility system, the implementation of all income Support transparency, and later also received Act on limited liability companies limit the number of shareholders, Naga is the upper house more shareholders, more than the upper limit of 50, they finally selected model is the management mechanism of the trust property, in particular operation is funded by the developer, 200 million as the trust property, commissioned by the formation of a natural person registered property company shares to the Trust, the owners are the beneficiaries of the trust shares, after the housing delivery, the owner can share files directly or indirectly in the Trust's shareholders to become the property . Since the trust property is independent of the trustor, trustee and the beneficiary of an independent property, the beneficiary under the trust document can only occupy, use and benefits, so all the owners are the beneficiaries, but the direct control of property trust property, so that owners are not able to freely transfer shares, and we compare, quality residential patterns and Naga Court model in fact there are some common features, first of all he will the interests of owners and property companies together and solve the confrontation between the two sides, In fact, the owners realized the self-management, but also reduce the occurrence of divergent understanding, in this mode, the owners and property companies on their fundamental interests, is consistent, the likelihood of conflict between the two has been greatly reduced, they differ District Court for the goods is that limits options, taken up by industry members to register to become shareholders of the model, while the Senate is to take equity Naga trust model, the establishment of property companies have also talked about how to deal with future options, but also need this mode common problems, both the property management also exist some problems, if the owners do not have a high sense of participation, it may be difficult, and in some large number of community as the owners are more, and the management is also more difficult to solve this model although the owners and the owners of the Committee and the conflict between property company based disputes. But the future of individual owners and the conflict between property companies may still be no way that they eventually resolved, individual owners and residential property owners to set up their own disputes between companies, such as arrears and the like as well as some individual disputes is difficult to be solved fundamentally. (17:00 pm update) Moderator: here today, did not find an air-conditioning, open to the back half of the time a bit stuffy, Mr. Lei Bin compare the hot conditions inside the conference room is not good, gave us a wonderful speech, we are very grateful to him. you have any problems to questions, Please ask questions, and I invited representatives of all of us pay attention, be sure to turn off the phone or tune into shock, do not use mobile phones, this habit is very bad, not only affect themselves, but also affect the others. have already seen two hands went up . please gentleman. Question: I speak on it, I was director of Kam Wah Building Owners Committee, I listened to mine the teachers, I think there are two points important to distinguish between what, I think the owners of the highest ideal is to I worked for, that is, the owners want to be autonomous, self-management owners of What is the difference? I said, more emphasis on self-management autonomy and transactional there are two, that is, the right to speak, as well as supervision, out of a transactional it, like Guangxi ... ... Host: Hello, I am sure you must have some truth in view, down after a single exchange with Mr. Lei Bin, do you have any issues directly to ask questions. Question: I think the future owners of self-management provided I do not think it should be more appropriate to speak of autonomy, more accurately, the property can talk about Moderator: please say your name. Question: I am My name is Wang shares Garden River (audio) Today my phone did not, and if I closed the phone, then they will not find me. I have two questions: The first question is about, including it? is a real problem ... ... Moderator: Mr. Ray you need to answer this question it? question: He can answer on the answer, not to answer back. The second question, we say we have a property owners committee to hire the company, and the new property management company, the oldest property companies do not go, do not take the old and new can not enter, how to do? have to court it? court to two years, he did not go to enforce, or no way, meaning to say, or fail to realize the self-management, this law ... ... Host: You ask two questions. (17:16 pm update) Ray Bin: I've learned and my grasp of the legal provisions for you are all provisions of these two issues, like the first question, that is not a replacement residential property company, is not to the owners can be replaced only after its establishment, is not to say that the owners will not be able to set up the Committee did not self-management approach, and I in our country, all residential property owners, generally you do not have established, residential property owners through joint decision of all, I think it is possible, dismissal of property management companies, we need to wait until after its establishment the owners to hiring or dismissal of another property Company or replace the property company. question: more significant issues need to plot all of the owners to decide, it is impossible to say by a few owners say that the actual which also appeared in such cases, there are several residential property owners wanted to control their own, then other owners deny it, and dealing with non- well this relationship. Moderator: Mr. Ray that relationship is to be be down, please discuss. please the lady. (17:18 pm update) Question: I am a dragon, Baiyun District, Guangzhou City Planning (audio) Garden, we are financing housing construction, please help us to reflect some of the things Mr. Ray to the National People's Congress, raising funds for the building of the district in Guangzhou, a lot, probably in the country, there are many, but this area why not be protected by law, the Government does not support. Moderator: Your question is specific. Question: We can not set up industry, the Commission can not, where to go to reason, could not speak, because you are not under the jurisdiction of financing housing construction areas, seem to have become an abandoned baby, The fault is not a bunch of financing housing construction owner's fault, but who is wrong, the parents are wrong, down the problem. What legacy does not matter, but to properly resolve the financing housing construction are not thrown away, as if not a citizen, does not belong to the owners of the. Moderator: Well, thank you! question: the existence of many problems now, a mess because such a plot it is mismanagement, there has been a lot of problems. Moderator: Well, thank you. Ray Bin: you just said this is the first time I heard, I would like to know is, is not you raise funds After the building is not no real estate license? question: no real estate license, and even water and electricity are not, are temporary water, temporary power, we are using is groundwater. Lei Bin: you raise housing is not a collective-owned land ? Question: It is the government and our contract. Lei Bin: What is the nature of the land. question: we do not know. Lei Bin: Why do not Banfangchanzheng it? question: that is financing housing construction, so developers and other local town government signed the land agreement, then developers to develop, purchase, when we buy real estate is equivalent to saying that we are financing housing construction, in the past to understand our policy is not clear, many of them buy, and now the final policy we are not sure what is the identity, Dragon Garden, as well. (17:22 pm update) Ray Bin: your specific question, because I am not very understanding of the situation in detail, probably time for you through what channels the More detailed information to us, although the district have certificates of title, then, is legitimate, of course, industry, the Commission should be established. Question: We have a collective purchase of books. Question: Baiyun District, the Housing Authority was the acceptance of several houses, you No real estate license is not real owners. Question: We want to set up a property owners rights group. Lei Bin: The legal definition of the owners, of course, should be based on certificates of title as evidence, or else nobody had a clue who the owners. question : Now the problem we do not have certificates of title, only the purchase agreement. Moderator: I make a suggestion, please, can Mr. Ray to be raised by a woman who suggested, through what channels to go and ask, why do not issue certificates of title, We then transferred to the next question. Lei Bin: still looking for housing authorities to carefully look at financing housing construction in terms of conditions Rush, because I know the situation is not the same all over, including some that case in Shenzhen, when some by the government issued a document form to solve some problems, but the case of Guangzhou, I do not know if there are some special characteristics. Question: I'm not saying that they want Banfangchanzheng, we just want to maintain their rights, real estate license this problem is very complex, involving a lot of things We do not want, we can maintain a good metaphor for life to live and work, the problems do not want real estate license in Taiyuan, we want to solve immediate problems. Ray Bin: We share this problem down again. Question: Thank you. Moderator: time for a little bit today bear to see the other representatives. good lady, please wait microphone to her. (17:24 pm update) Question: I am a day Yuexiu District, Guangzhou, Chi Square, the director of industry, the Commission, my name is Nie, we just received a very heavy results, we last November to dismiss the original lawsuit to the old property management company, last November to the Yuexiu district court proceedings, through the full 6 months of the time, out result is that we do not suit owners of the Committee subject, and now there is the result of this stage, we are puzzled, and then we will appeal, appeal to the Intermediate People's Court in September, we have three letters, and urging in this case, urging that the case of three below. We went to the Intermediate People's Court petition three times, in such under constant urging, ruled out the results of the final verdict for life, is that our lack of evidence, we are completely through the legal process authorized by owners , and then to legal means to fight this to the dismissal of the old property companies, property management companies to hire new approach, the new property management company has been commissioned by the contract have signed a service that is received last Friday the 25th verdict life of the verdict, we do not know how to do this out, we owners of the Committee for so much last time, for so much work, the end result is like this, we can not accept, how to deal with, so in this meeting on the situation I put us back to you, how did you go to see the matter. Lei Bin: Owners Litigation Qualification Commission, including in the legislation which has always been controversial is very large, subject to the proceedings, eligible owners of the relevant provisions of the Commission removed the main proceedings, the NPC may also have to consider in this regard, the Commission is mainly because the owners may themselves bear the legal consequences involved, if that would have involved lost by the Who will bear, because of the larger controversy, had never or not into it, but in practice the process of Supreme Court judicial interpretation in this respect, judicial interpretation of the Commission on residential property owners to sue in their own name in this area have a judicial interpretation, I suggest you go back and look at the judicial interpretation of this area, you look at the district's lawsuit, the control of his judicial interpretation is not consistent with the scope of his action, because now the issue has been controversial since the very large, and I in this Modern property in this area made the above article, if you are interested can take a look this article, because the theory is stronger, one or two words is unclear. (17:28 pm update) Question: According to you so that the law is mentioned, many precedents have been a success, and now this stage is still the subject of proceedings, our problem is through legal procedures, is also authorized by the General Assembly, we went to litigation. Ray Bin: I understand the actual situation, some Court decisions had also the main owners of the Committee does not have the qualifications, in some cases, meet the qualification, mainly to see when specific litigation lawsuit, ...